what size throttle body for adequate air flow?

chodjinn · Post by **chodjinn** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:17 am

Hi,

I've just done the calculation for my engine. I'm running a 3.5litre V8 (215 cu) and used peak rpm as 6,000. I plan on using a single throttle body when I move over to Injection. According to the calculation I need a single throttle body with 20sq.in, which results in a 5" throttle body!

I was planning on using either a single 72mm or 90mm?

Anybody provide any advice?

Post by **efahl** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:43 am

Hmm, I get a much smaller number than that.

215/(12**3) * 6000/2 = 373.3 CFM

Using 300 fpm as the maximum velocity, and using an 8 mm diameter throttle shaft, I calculate the following:

Flow 373.3 cfm
Velocity 300.0 fps
TB size of 3.667 in^2 = 2.161 in dia = 54.88 mm

What sort of flow velocity are you guys modelling here? Even with 200 fps, I get much smaller TB size:

Velocity 200.0 fps
TB size of 5.297 in^2 = 2.597 in dia = 65.96 mm

(I really should build an on-line calculator, as my algorithm uses a Newtonian solver to converge on bore diameter as a function of flow and velocity, which requires subtracting out the area of the throttle shaft at each diameter and then re-solving. I'd like to get boundary layer effects in, too, probably just a simple fixed-thickness model.)

Eric

jsmcortina · Post by **jsmcortina** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:59 am

I'm using a pair of 50mm throttles on my 3.5 V8 (because that's what I had from two Sierra pinto EFI manifolds) and while it works well, they are actually too big. That equates to the same area as one 70mm.

James

Post by **efahl** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:59 am

Here we go, same calcs with a fixed 1 mm boundary layer, assuming mean boundary velocity is 0.5*mean velocity through the TB...

Total Flow = 373.3 cfm
Mean Velocity = 200.0 fps
Number of bores = 1
TB area per bore = 5.580 in^2
Diameter = 2.666 in = 67.70 mm

Now go here and play with various settings that net you various velocities (velocity matter is all that matters, flow and diameter just get you there), specifically look at the last two numbers for pressure drop (see if Corky Bell is correct with his suggestion of 300 fps max):

http://www.not2fast.com/gasflow/velocity.shtml

chodjinn · Post by **chodjinn** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:21 am

I was going on power as a factor as well (before I found this thread). I've seen a 300bhp SD1 (same engine as mine) running twin 65mm group A throttle bodies. I used a much simpler formjla by just comparing x-sectional area:

65mm = 3.25cm Radius = 33.24cm2

x2 = 66.48cm2 for 2 65mm throttle bodies

A single 90mm gives:

4.5 x 4.5 x 3.147 = 63.73cm2

Therefore I worked out the 90mm was almost equivalent to 2x 65mm, and as I want to run a similar power level surely that should be sufficient?

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:39 am

I see that in the calcs CFM is used. How would one calc this for a supercharged engine, would the Pressure Ratio affect the # used for the calcs? Or should the uncompressed CFM be use?

Tommy

chodjinn · Post by **chodjinn** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:56 am

^^^ Same question here actually, I've got two turbos bolted to mine. Do you have to consider boost? I would imagine you would, as forced induction increases the air flow. If so a large single throttle body like I mentioned would probably suffice (90mm)?

cheers

PSIG · Post by **PSIG** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:25 pm

efahl wrote: . . . Now go here and play with various settings that net you various velocities (velocity matter is all that matters, flow and diameter just get you there), specifically look at the last two numbers for pressure drop (see if Corky Bell is correct with his suggestion of 300 fps max):

http://www.not2fast.com/gasflow/velocity.shtml

Cool calculator Eric. Is there a 'rule of thumb' range we could then derive to set reasonable operational boundaries between tip-in troubles and performance losses? Perhaps back-calc from driving examples through the calculator? It would be great to have an appended line on the injector calculator that suggests the TB size range appropriate to a vehicle with the entered values as a sort-of educated-guess package deal.

David

Post by **efahl** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:28 pm

David,

I was thinking along the same lines with regard to the injector sizing thing... I looked at my "turbo" calculator and thought about adding TB sizing to it, but then decided to work out a better scheme for doing the TB estimation first before I integrate it into anything else. I've got a friend who is an aerodynamicist and he's thinking about how to model a nice axisymmetric TB including a wide-open blade obstruction. I had not thought about the tip-in phase of flow, I'll mention that to him and see what if we can get a simple model that does something useful.

Eric

whittlebeast · Post by **whittlebeast** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:58 pm

I like to keep the intake air velosity below about 90 ft/sec or about 60 MPH. My simple minded logic is if you ever stick your hand out the window at 60 MPH that is about the time the loads start going up. Remember that drag is a squared function.

For fun I ran a few napkin calcs on a typical 1200 cc motorcycle pulling 13000 RPM with air going thru 4-42mm intakes and got about 50mph airflow in the throttles. (1200 GSXR stock)

Next I ran a 302 CI motor running 5000 RPM thru a single 80mm MAF and got 90 MPH (Mustang with a 80 mm MAF)

Last I ran that same motor pulling air thru a duel bore 62mm throttle body and got 75MPH (Mustang with a 62mm duel throttle body)

A little food for thought

AW