new microsquirt?

[racingmini_mtl]

So that makes the Microsquirt module no longer competitive at all.

Jean

[dontz125]

Given the new, reduced price of the 'boxed' uS, will the price of the uSM, both retail and wholesale, be reduced? It may be hard for me to charge a reasonable price (once I get going, admitted), when the OEM of my motherboard is selling something comparable for cheaper!

[Bernard Fife]

Dontz125,

The idea behind the module was always that independent developers could add 'content' to give their offering something that the regular microsquirt doesn't offer. Things like added circuits for specific needs, specialized connectors to mate to OEM harnesses, etc. The microsquirt module was never intended for others to be able to undercut the standard microsquirt on price.

If what you are developing has enough worthwhile content that sufficient buyers find it worth what you will be charging, you will still have a market. If the only purpose of your development is to be cheaper than the 'official' microsquirt, then yes, you are probably going to have a hard time selling them.

Lance.

[dontz125]

My intent was not to undercut the uS on price, but the uS is now undercutting ME on price.

If my uSM-based device and the B&G uS have different features but are comparable in price, I have a market, I sell my units, AND B&G still gets a sale because I am buying modules from them.

If the B&G uS is significantly cheaper, there is a pretty good chance I will lose the sale, even though my product is more suited to the particular application. B&G still gets the sale, but I'm out in the cold.

What point then the module?

[racingmini_mtl]

Lance,

The issue is not to undercut the Microsquirt on price but simply to offer a different product at a competitive price for the users. With the old price structure, it made sense. With the new pricing, it is more difficult to justify the additional cost even with features not available on the Microsquirt. Moreover, the old module has the troublesome tach inputs which need to be taken care of in some ways which increases the cost and complexity.

And since the module is the only alternative for people wanting to offer small runs of a different product, that makes it problematic. If there were other alternatives this would not be such a big deal (and licensing is unfortunately not an alternative for small runs).

Jean

[Bernard Fife]

Dontz125,

The point of the module is as I stated. You need to add enough content to make your offering worth while to users. I don't think I can be any more clear on that, so I will will leave it at that.

It wouldn't be fair in general to keep the price of the new MicroSquirt higher than it could be. I'm sure no-one supports that.

I have no idea about the future pricing of the module, but I do know that like all B&G items, the margins on it are very slim, so there is likely very little room to cut prices without reducing the board's production cost significantly (and any re-design process itself costs money in set-up and tooling, etc.).

Lance.

[Bruce Bowling]

So that makes the Microsquirt module no longer competitive at all.

Jean

Wow - I thought that people would be happy to pay less for the new Microsquirt...its no problem for B&G to jack up the price Its true - no good deed goes unpunished....

You did not read the announcement fully - the $299.00 price is WITHOUT HARNESS. a 3 foot harness is something like $40.00 (I do not have the exact price in front of me, but its in the ballpark). So the real delta is $61.00, not $101.00.

The old Microsquirt price structure (at $400.00) included a 3 foot harness. Many people wanted the option to be able to purchase the new unit without a harness so they can spin their own, or obtain a 6 foot harness version and not have a 3 foot one left over like they did with the original setup.

So, comparing this new version of uS to the cost of a microsquirt module, factoring in the harness additional cost, there is a nearly $90.00 delta in price, so I do not see the real issue where the new microsquirt pricing will stop module sales at all. Like Lance clearly pointed out, the module by itself has little value, its the overall system that it is used in that provides the added value, the module is just an engine to achieve this. The module was intended for "application-specific" and value-add systems, not as a direct competitor to uS (which seems to be what many want to do).

Look at DIY's implementation with their PnP units - the module is but a small part in their overall setup. There is the engineering to achieve a PnP, the mechanics of the enclosure, PnP connector, calibration, etc., the support for the unit, dealing with installation issues and RMAs, etc, etc. They have taken the module and made it into something much, much bigger, which was the original intent of offering the module in the first place. True value-add with their setups, no one can argue this at all.

And people who want a module board to experiment with nothing has changed for doing this.

Seriously - if people want me to increase the price we will be more than happy to do so. Just as long as when a potential future user "balks" at the resale price I can point them to this thread and let them know the reason exactly why they are paying more when they could have had it for less....

- Bruce

[dontz125]

Hi, Bruce.

You may have misunderstood my concerns. I have not the slightest qualms regarding DIY's PnP - I have my own plans for a uSM-based 'Cadillac' injection system. My concerns are very much in the opposite direction. I'm not trying to make something BETTER than the MicroSquirt, justifying a higher price. I'm trying to sell something SIMPLER.

When I first emailed you fellows back in November regarding the possibility of a license for a modified MS1, you demurred and pointed me at the module. I protested, saying that the price and features of the module were overkill and that it would make my product hugely expensive compared to the systems against which I would be competing. You pointed out the savings of a "Dealer" level purchase, at which point I calmed down and scurried off to my den to begin designing things in earnest.

With this price shift, I am now in the position of attempting to sell a device with a SHORTER feature list than the cased uS for the SAME PRICE. I now have to convince a customer that the convenience of a direct hook-up to the existing connectors is worth the same price as something with more capabilities. I *WAS* planning to sell something cheaper and simpler than the uS, something not in competition with the B&G product. You've now put me in a position of going head-to-head with you.

the module by itself has little value

This statement is incredible. Under the current business model as I understand it, for small vendors the MODULE IS THE LICENSE.

[86turbodsl]

Bruce,

Please don't jack up the price! The lower price makes these sorts of conversions more affordable to end users.

dontz,

Unfortunately time marches on. It's normal for products to increase in features and complexity, as a way of attracting new customers and increasing value. You see this on TV's, home and car electronics, software, cars, etc. Should we sell cars without power windows so you can purchase them and upgrade them? Almost any product development is a moving target. It's just a fact of life. If it wasn't I wouldn't have a job benchmarking competitors' cars for my employer...

[Bruce Bowling]

the module by itself has little value

This statement is incredible. Under the current business model as I understand it, for small vendors the MODULE IS THE LICENSE.

Take the comment above in its correct context - the module, by itself, will not run a car without additional hardware. Its what is added that is what makes it different from the generic Microsquirt. Hell, one could take just a module and add header/free wires and a BUD case for $10.00 and sell the setup for less than a microsquirt+harness and still make a nice profit. I personally do not see the value-add to something like this - its just someone else's version of the same thing.

One thing on the modules - if you are B&G reseller, there is a quantity order price structure on the microsquirt modules over "street-pricing". Something to consider for those planning on using the modules in a product.

Discussing your license agreement request, if I recall correctly (forgive me if I have this wrong, I may be way off track here - I have many such requests), we asked a rough idea on how many units you envision or plan on selling, and IIRC the number was 10 units or something like this - total. Realize that for a license agreement we have to go to an attorney and have an agreement drawn up which is not inexpensive, then wait for the ROI back on 10 units - by anyone's math we (B&G) lose money on this.

The whole "license agreement" thing has been a complete nightmare for us. We have had countless people request an agreement, we go thru the motions on our end and have it drawn up, then nothing happens at all after it is in place. We have been burned so many times I cannot count, and this is our own fault for being too liberal on what it takes to obtain an agreement.

So, on license agreements, we still offer them for sure - but there needs to be a little skin in the game for the requester and not just B&G losing out in the end. Now, for an agreement to be generated, we require the following simple information:

- Business name - this has to be a real business, with a TAX ID number, phone number, and liability insurance. Engine controllers are not play-toys, they are serious devices with serious legal consequences for misuse.
- A simple writeup on what the new controller will do, the space it covers, and what makes it different from whats out there. When we ask for this, the majority of people never come back, which baffles the hell out of me. If they cannot write about the product they want to create then how are they going to market it? We do not want a dissertation, just a good writeup to get a grasp on what it is being built and why it should be done.
- Sales channel - how are you going to market the unit? Unfortunately, the "make it and they will come" mentality does not work, there needs to be real thought on how it is going to be marketed.
- Support channel - Is there a phone number to call for questions? Is there a staff to deal with order fulfillment, RMAs, shipping errors, etc.? This is such a huge aspect that is looked-over every time, and its the thing that will make/break a product long-term. What always seems to happen is that end users ultimately come back to B&G or other resellers for support when they do not get answers from the people who created the device in the first place - they are long gone. So, now we want to see if/how this aspect has been addressed by the person wishing a license agreement.
- Planned/target quantity sales/month - we are not going to lay out a $$grand+ in lawyer fees to get a license agreement drawn up just to sell 10 units. Not going to happen. Unfortunately, this is what has happened in the past with agreements more times than I can count - and the vast majority of times the sales never happen. There has to be a minimum target units to meet, or at least a real demand potential, otherwise it just does not make sense to engage in an agreement. For these cases, use the module and see how the market receives the unit. But - if you have a great market space and a good plan on marketing and a good feel for demand, trust us when we say we will be helping all the way for sure.

All of the above is "Business 101", nothing mind-blowing here, just common sense areas to think about. And we want serious people engaging on a license agreement, we do not have the time to entertain others.

Addressing your system that is "simpler" - simpler is a real tangible feature that I agree is a real feature, and we, too are striving towards this goal as well. I am not sure if simpler warrants a whole new hardware variant, maybe it does. Yes, the current Microsquirt does not have a ISC stepper chip, or multiple low-Z drivers, or more than 2 spark/ignition channels. If "simpler" means pulling all of this on one board and repackaging it, then yes this is an upgrade to the current microsquirt, and the resale should also be more and the consumer should be able to see this clearly and be willing to pay for it.

On the other side, if someone wants to make the exact same Microsquirt by using a module and ampseal but with a different color case case, then this is NOT a differing product at all (don't laugh, I was asked this a while back, they were serious).

- Bruce