Here's the beginning of my parts collection.
Got the F.P. and the coil from a cycle salvage.
Both are small and the fump is rated up to 50 p.s.i.
future Microsquirt conversion????
Forum rules
Read the manual to see if your question is answered there before posting. If you have questions about MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra or other non-B&G code configuration or tuning, please post them at http://www.msextra.com The full forum rules are here: Forum Rules, be sure to read them all regularly.
Read the manual to see if your question is answered there before posting. If you have questions about MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra or other non-B&G code configuration or tuning, please post them at http://www.msextra.com The full forum rules are here: Forum Rules, be sure to read them all regularly.
Hi , Toon
1) How much output does your alternator produce ? (Amps)
2)How many volts does the alternator put out with the battery disconnected .
3) Will the engine run with the battery disconnected ?
4) Do your present coils mount up against the outside of the flywheel ?
(The pictures are not there)
How many wires come out of each coil ? , should be just one .
5) Is your engine a 45 degree or 90 degree V-Twin ,
Don't assume , do the numbers , this is very important .
In a previous post you said it was a 45 degree engine ,
from the pictures it looks like a 90 degree engine .
...................Jim
1) How much output does your alternator produce ? (Amps)
2)How many volts does the alternator put out with the battery disconnected .
3) Will the engine run with the battery disconnected ?
4) Do your present coils mount up against the outside of the flywheel ?
(The pictures are not there)
How many wires come out of each coil ? , should be just one .
5) Is your engine a 45 degree or 90 degree V-Twin ,
Don't assume , do the numbers , this is very important .
In a previous post you said it was a 45 degree engine ,
from the pictures it looks like a 90 degree engine .
...................Jim
thank's Jim, I deleted some pics. of the ignition setup so I can post some other pics. I can repost them tonight.
The alt./ gen will put out 20 amps.
I'm not sure what it will produce with the batt, disconnected, Never checked.
Don't know if it will run disconnected.
the coils that are there (2) are hall coils/magnetic p/u, with one ele. wire going to it and one plug wire each.
It is a 90 degree, I made a mistake in my other post.
Talking to Megascott I decided to go with a VR sensor p/u ignition.
Thank's, Keith
The alt./ gen will put out 20 amps.
I'm not sure what it will produce with the batt, disconnected, Never checked.
Don't know if it will run disconnected.
the coils that are there (2) are hall coils/magnetic p/u, with one ele. wire going to it and one plug wire each.
It is a 90 degree, I made a mistake in my other post.
Talking to Megascott I decided to go with a VR sensor p/u ignition.
Thank's, Keith
The alternator output voltage is important to know
so that you don't SMOKE your new MicroSquirt .
20 amps is casual for running any ignition you want , plus the fuel pump .
Some of the other guys here would know more than me about COP set-ups ,
but it seems to me it will have to be set up as an 8 cylinder wasted spark
engine but only use 2 of the 4 outputs (90 degrees apart) .
As for injector mounting ,
I would get another identical carb and then modify it like this......
Remove the float bowl then turn the carb upside-down ,
cut off everything that sticks up above the level of the float bowl gasket .
Fill the rest of the cavity with JB-Weld , after it hardens , sand the surface flat .
Take the carb body to a machine shop and have them drill a proper sized
hole up through the carb and into the venturi for the injector .
The JB-Weld can be drilled and tapped for studs to retain the injector .
Single fuel connectors are available instead of using a fuel rail .
This will help with fuel atomization since the fuel is being injected into
the low pressure venturi .
This means you can run any fuel pressure you want without problems .
Speaking of fuel pressure ,
you should have a manifold vacuum compensated regulator ,
even though the injector is not subject to manifold vacuum ,
this will make tuning simpler ,
your initial VE Table should be 50% in ALL Bins ,
then adjust your Required Fuel to get the engine running
and you will be very close overall .
Injector size is not a problem since you will only be using one .
This also an advantage because you don't have to alter your governor linkage ,
and you definitely need a governor with this type of engine ,
it will throw a rod out of the block at anything over 4500 rpm .
For this same reason , you do not want to run a TPS ,
it will cause way too much drag on your governor linkage .
The only real disadvantage to not having a TPS
is that you won't have "Flood Clear Mode" ,
so if you flood the engine you will have to turn off the fuel pump ,
crank till it starts , then turn on the fuel pump again .
Intake Manifold Icing ,
You need to get rid of that Mongo centrifugal air filter ,
most boats don't have air cleaners ,
just a screen to keep out the rocks .
Looks like your carb inlet can be flipped upside-down .
You need to run a flexible hose from the intake to pick up
warm cooling air from the engine ,
or make a sheet metal cover over your muffler to collect hot air ,
this will also make the engine somewhat smoother when it's cold ,
and completely eliminate the icing .
...................Jim
so that you don't SMOKE your new MicroSquirt .
20 amps is casual for running any ignition you want , plus the fuel pump .
Some of the other guys here would know more than me about COP set-ups ,
but it seems to me it will have to be set up as an 8 cylinder wasted spark
engine but only use 2 of the 4 outputs (90 degrees apart) .
As for injector mounting ,
I would get another identical carb and then modify it like this......
Remove the float bowl then turn the carb upside-down ,
cut off everything that sticks up above the level of the float bowl gasket .
Fill the rest of the cavity with JB-Weld , after it hardens , sand the surface flat .
Take the carb body to a machine shop and have them drill a proper sized
hole up through the carb and into the venturi for the injector .
The JB-Weld can be drilled and tapped for studs to retain the injector .
Single fuel connectors are available instead of using a fuel rail .
This will help with fuel atomization since the fuel is being injected into
the low pressure venturi .
This means you can run any fuel pressure you want without problems .
Speaking of fuel pressure ,
you should have a manifold vacuum compensated regulator ,
even though the injector is not subject to manifold vacuum ,
this will make tuning simpler ,
your initial VE Table should be 50% in ALL Bins ,
then adjust your Required Fuel to get the engine running
and you will be very close overall .
Injector size is not a problem since you will only be using one .
This also an advantage because you don't have to alter your governor linkage ,
and you definitely need a governor with this type of engine ,
it will throw a rod out of the block at anything over 4500 rpm .
For this same reason , you do not want to run a TPS ,
it will cause way too much drag on your governor linkage .
The only real disadvantage to not having a TPS
is that you won't have "Flood Clear Mode" ,
so if you flood the engine you will have to turn off the fuel pump ,
crank till it starts , then turn on the fuel pump again .
Intake Manifold Icing ,
You need to get rid of that Mongo centrifugal air filter ,
most boats don't have air cleaners ,
just a screen to keep out the rocks .
Looks like your carb inlet can be flipped upside-down .
You need to run a flexible hose from the intake to pick up
warm cooling air from the engine ,
or make a sheet metal cover over your muffler to collect hot air ,
this will also make the engine somewhat smoother when it's cold ,
and completely eliminate the icing .
...................Jim
thank's for all the info Jim, there is a voltage reg. on the motor.
I picked up a dual output motorcycle coil for ignition and a MC fuel pump. there is a pic. of it in this forum under "starting the collection".
Where is a good place to find the Press reg. you mentioned?
I do have a place to put the TPS that is not on the carb, if it is not absolutly necassary, I won't bother. It will be a P.I.T.A to mount.
The motor spins 3600 max righ now. with timing advance, I want to get 4k. will this affect the governer operations?
Is it possible to bring the timing in later in the rpm range?
I found some info on outboard motor fuel systems. They run their FP at 40-43 psi. with some calcs. it looks like the 70hp motor has the fuel flow I'm looking for. I will get more info tomorrow. The injectors are cheap$70 ea.
Thank's for all your help, Keith
I picked up a dual output motorcycle coil for ignition and a MC fuel pump. there is a pic. of it in this forum under "starting the collection".
Where is a good place to find the Press reg. you mentioned?
I do have a place to put the TPS that is not on the carb, if it is not absolutly necassary, I won't bother. It will be a P.I.T.A to mount.
The motor spins 3600 max righ now. with timing advance, I want to get 4k. will this affect the governer operations?
Is it possible to bring the timing in later in the rpm range?
I found some info on outboard motor fuel systems. They run their FP at 40-43 psi. with some calcs. it looks like the 70hp motor has the fuel flow I'm looking for. I will get more info tomorrow. The injectors are cheap$70 ea.
Thank's for all your help, Keith
You can't use a dual output coil on a V-Twin engine ,
you need 2 separate single coils ,
you have a low compression engine so any coil will work .
The fuel pressure reg is HERE .
You don't really want to mess with braided steel hoses ,
just use regular fuel injection hose and put a protective
jacket over them to prevent damage .
The TPS wouldn't work mounted anywhere but the throttle shaft anyway,
don't bother with it .
Your governor can be set to any rpm you want simply by adjusting the spring .
WARNING , your engine WILL EXPLODE over 4500 rpm .
Timing advance will not necessarily "give you more rpm" ,
the governor regulates maximum rpm .
Your prop or gearing may load the engine so much that it can not
produce enough torque to achieve 3600 rpm ,
or what ever speed the governor is set for .
At the governor's set point rpm (3600) it will close the throttle so that the
engine speed will not exceed 3600 , even with the prop out of the water .
If you want more top speed you need a higher pitched prop ,
if you want more grunt from a stop to get out of a hole use a lower pitched prop .
You want to run the timing as advanced as you can without
the engine getting into detonation or "knocking" .
There is no reason you would want to retard the timing from the factory settings .
You need to find out exactly what the stock timing is at 3600 rpm ,
before you remove the stock ignition coils .
More timing can give you more
overall power and much better gas mileage ,
especially between 3000 and 4000 rpm ,
and , make the idle much smoother and quieter .
...................Jim
you need 2 separate single coils ,
you have a low compression engine so any coil will work .
The fuel pressure reg is HERE .
You don't really want to mess with braided steel hoses ,
just use regular fuel injection hose and put a protective
jacket over them to prevent damage .
The TPS wouldn't work mounted anywhere but the throttle shaft anyway,
don't bother with it .
Your governor can be set to any rpm you want simply by adjusting the spring .
WARNING , your engine WILL EXPLODE over 4500 rpm .
Timing advance will not necessarily "give you more rpm" ,
the governor regulates maximum rpm .
Your prop or gearing may load the engine so much that it can not
produce enough torque to achieve 3600 rpm ,
or what ever speed the governor is set for .
At the governor's set point rpm (3600) it will close the throttle so that the
engine speed will not exceed 3600 , even with the prop out of the water .
If you want more top speed you need a higher pitched prop ,
if you want more grunt from a stop to get out of a hole use a lower pitched prop .
You want to run the timing as advanced as you can without
the engine getting into detonation or "knocking" .
There is no reason you would want to retard the timing from the factory settings .
You need to find out exactly what the stock timing is at 3600 rpm ,
before you remove the stock ignition coils .
More timing can give you more
overall power and much better gas mileage ,
especially between 3000 and 4000 rpm ,
and , make the idle much smoother and quieter .
...................Jim
WOW!! thank's Jim, you have completely realighned my outlook twards this project.
Why is it not possible to use a dual output coil ( not to challenge you, I don't know)? If it makes a difference I am planning on using 2 VR sensors.
The engine will produce more than enough power to turn the prop. The prop. is designed to be surface drive.
To give you some back ground of why I'm looking to convert to F.I..
The motor is made for generators and Dixie chopper lawn mowers. The carb is not made to be in and out of the throttle, no accel pump. If the throttle is turned to fast, the engine starves for fuel. This causes major useability problems for my app..I thought about going to another carb. but not many options are avail..
I like F.I. and although it will be quite a bit of work, It will be worth it.
Thank's again Jim, would you like to take this offline or keep going on this post? Keith
Why is it not possible to use a dual output coil ( not to challenge you, I don't know)? If it makes a difference I am planning on using 2 VR sensors.
The engine will produce more than enough power to turn the prop. The prop. is designed to be surface drive.
To give you some back ground of why I'm looking to convert to F.I..
The motor is made for generators and Dixie chopper lawn mowers. The carb is not made to be in and out of the throttle, no accel pump. If the throttle is turned to fast, the engine starves for fuel. This causes major useability problems for my app..I thought about going to another carb. but not many options are avail..
I like F.I. and although it will be quite a bit of work, It will be worth it.
Thank's again Jim, would you like to take this offline or keep going on this post? Keith
A wasted spark type coil fires both plugs attached to it at the same time .
In order to use a wasted spark type coil ,
the engine has to have at least 2 pistons arriving at TDC at the same time .
A V-Twin's pistons arrive at TDC 90degrees apart , so you would have one
cylinder at TDC and the other one would be half way down the cylinder ,
when both spark plugs fired .
I don't know how 2 VR sensors can work ,
there is only one VR circuit on the MS board .
Maybe MS can be set up for a 4-2 missing tooth wheel .
I'm sure 4 VR sensors would work , if they were all wired in parallel .
Ah Hah!! ingenious plan!!
Set up just one VR sensor to count your cooling fan blades ,
you will have to cut a notch in one of them to simulate a missing tooth .
How many cooling fan blades are on your flywheel ?
Are they made out of cast iron or aluminum ?
Are the tops of the fins evenly spaced and evenly sized ?
You can drill a hole in the top of your fan shroud and
mount the VR sensor so that the tip runs very close to the fan blades .
One fan blade will have to be shortened by about half an inch .
BTW , you don't need to use any relays ,
one toggle switch will start and stop everything .
You will need a 30amp inline fuse at the battery with a wire to the switch ,
then 3 inline fuses from the switch to MS , the 02 controller and the fuel pump ,
(5amp , 10amp , 10amp) .
...................Jim
In order to use a wasted spark type coil ,
the engine has to have at least 2 pistons arriving at TDC at the same time .
A V-Twin's pistons arrive at TDC 90degrees apart , so you would have one
cylinder at TDC and the other one would be half way down the cylinder ,
when both spark plugs fired .
I don't know how 2 VR sensors can work ,
there is only one VR circuit on the MS board .
Maybe MS can be set up for a 4-2 missing tooth wheel .
I'm sure 4 VR sensors would work , if they were all wired in parallel .
Ah Hah!! ingenious plan!!
Set up just one VR sensor to count your cooling fan blades ,
you will have to cut a notch in one of them to simulate a missing tooth .
How many cooling fan blades are on your flywheel ?
Are they made out of cast iron or aluminum ?
Are the tops of the fins evenly spaced and evenly sized ?
You can drill a hole in the top of your fan shroud and
mount the VR sensor so that the tip runs very close to the fan blades .
One fan blade will have to be shortened by about half an inch .
BTW , you don't need to use any relays ,
one toggle switch will start and stop everything .
You will need a 30amp inline fuse at the battery with a wire to the switch ,
then 3 inline fuses from the switch to MS , the 02 controller and the fuel pump ,
(5amp , 10amp , 10amp) .
...................Jim