Real-world AFRs at WOT...

For discussing MicroSquirt (TM) configuration and tuning of fuel parameters (including idle valves, etc.).
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saqmaster

Post by saqmaster »

Air:Fuel Ratios are often misunderstood. The ideal for n/a engines is around 13:1 and ideal for turbocharged is 12.5:1. Sure, that's a blanket statement, but it's rare that you'll need to move away from that on a properly spec'd and tuned engine.

Before I get flamed..

The reason most of the "turbo crew", inparticular those in North America, run such rediculously low AFR's, is because they are insistent on running high compression engines (anything over about 8.5:1). They have to saturate the engine with fuel, which lowers the cylinder temperature, which helps prevent detonation. It's as simple as that.

If you run a low enough static compression ratio, say 7.5:1 - 8.5:1 depending on the engine, you can use a better AFR and also far superior spark timing (more advance = lower your EGT's). It all works together. You also get serious gains in torque. It's a common misconception that "low" CR's make your car "laggy". When you have a 7.5:1 zetec making 300 lb-ft at 2500rpm with a relatively large T04b turbocharger, you can't really call that laggy. It's all down to knowing what you're doing and understanding the physics behind it. Fortunately, engines are constantly getting better and more modern turbocharged engines are coming out with high compression ratios and are less prone to detonation - however, even these have relatively crap torque curves (eg, audi 1.8T, subaru, evo etc.) - they all peak then drop off as timing has to be pulled. But these are OEM cars that are used 95% of the time from 1000-4000rpm and need to be the most responsive there.. That's the constraints of manufacturing..

When mapping engines on the dyno (engine dyno), lets say your top line is 2 bar boost.. At around 2000rpm, we'll be at 12.8:1. We'll interpolate this down to about 12.5:1 by 6000rpm.. Then 6000-7500 we'll drop it to 12.2:1. This extra fuel just cools things down enough to prolonge engine life at the very top. It's not a bad idea and it doesn't cost you much torque.

Also, another misconception is observing the AFR's of OEM cars with catalytic converters. You take your average modern car, put a wide band on it and take a drive up the street. Under WOT conditions, you may see very rich AFR's, even as low as 10:1!! There is a reason for this. Catalytic converters are designed to work at a particular temperature, in this instance 750C. When cars are mapped by manufactuers, each load site is mapped to a couple of main criteria. These are 1) Until peak torque is achieved and 2) Until cat temperature = 750C. So basically they go to a load site, set the fuelling and ignition to the maximum for torque, and then add fuel in until the cat temp sits at 750C or slightly below. If you know anything about how the burn works inside an engine and anything about emissions you'll soon start to realise that catalytic converters are not doing the environment much good at all (under mid-full throttle)..

You can instantly gain power on a cat car by a) removing the cat and b) taking out the additional fuel they had to add in..

I know some of the above is slightly unrelated.. but it's all relative in the end! 8)
Enthalpy
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Post by Enthalpy »

I have yet to see a thread on this forum where there's flaming. It's why I love posting discussions here! Welcome, EMS friend!

AFR is purely a thermal management measure. Rich AFRs cools the combustion both chemically (not enough O2 for reactions late in the process that are exothermic) as well as simply thermally absorbing energy during the process. It's main function is not an air temp reducer.

Compression is definitely one factor, but not the only one. You can have impressive compression and boost and not be knock-limited. Examples include the S2000, 3S-GTE and quite a few high-flow EGR Volvo engines of late. As a result, making generalized compression ratio statements have also been proven to be false as of late.

Volvo has demonstrated that high-flow cooled EGR allows for 13.5 AFR without power reduction in the least. I am reproducing this on my MR2 right now with great results. Talk about your fuel savings!

The AFR you choose is going to be dependant on intended use along with the engine's ability to fight high temps. EGTs will play a part, and they go up with decreasing compression.

Examples of differences in intended use: 1/4 mile vs. hill climb will require different AFRs primarily for the poor turbo, but engine cooling capacity obviously plays a role. All of these factors can be reproduced on a dyno, and very accurately optimized.

As for cats, I have read very different things from what you are posting, but I will admit to never tuning an engine with cats in my life.
-Damon

http://www.damon.menocu.com/MR2/
1991 MR2, 60K miles, 90K coats of wax. ;)
LT401Vette
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Post by LT401Vette »

That is the fun of creating new combos for power, there are many factors, usually no solid right or wrong for any particular component. It will behave differently as combined with other components.

It can be hard to let go of too much compression though. Not only do you loose some engine responsiveness, but fuel economy is negatively impacted by lower compression as well. More so than power. In reality the extra rich mixture is hurting power, but allowing more compression to help power. It could be a cancellation with no net gain or loss, but you would loose no boost responsiveness and fuel economy.

Now whether you really end up with no net gain or loss, or how much fuel economy you loose, probably depends on the rest of your setup.
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midnightblue
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Post by midnightblue »

I have been reading the discussion with interest. The members of the megasquirt forums offer such a huge volume of knowledge, and without their opinions becoming personal.

When most of us less knowledgeable folks tune, we guess at the ideal AFRs, and tune the VE values to follow.

When I originally began the thread I was also interested in some real-world examples of AFRs being used. Particularly where people have discovered their ideal targets with dyno time and EGT measurement.

Given the range of basic engine design/installation/cams/turbos and other modifications, I accept that each engine will be different, sometimes very different.

I thought it would me useful for all the members to have a range examples engines, configurations and target AFRs. At least then we can hopefully look at those and draw parallels with our own set-up.

I think it would certainly help many people to put more thought into setting their ARF targets. Maybe it could be incorporated into the "Success Stories" as some kind of spec sheet for the car? Maybe others have some interesting ideas on how to present and share this information.

Many thanks for such an interesting debate. Matt.
LT401Vette
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Post by LT401Vette »

To be more specific for me.....

I had originally tuned my small block at the drag strip focusing on trap. When I pulled into the dyno, I had max timing set at 38* to 6500RPM, I made best rwhp at about 11.5:1 AFR and there was black smoke to agree. If I leaned it, I would loose power. Then I pulled timing out to 34*, once again loosing power. However, with it at 34* when I pulled fuel out the power came back. In the end I landed at 34* with an AFR of 12.5:1. It was within 5 rwhp of when I first came in, but didn't have the smoke anyway.

I found this timing/AFR relationship intriguing. I wasn't detecting knock at any point, but for some reason it wanted more fuel with more timing. Slower burn with the extra fuel for cooling I guess.

I haven't had my Big block on the dyno yet. This spring it should finally happen.
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fscott
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I like this idea!

Post by fscott »

midnightblue wrote:I thought it would me useful for all the members to have a range examples engines, configurations and target AFRs. At least then we can hopefully look at those and draw parallels with our own set-up.

I think it would certainly help many people to put more thought into setting their ARF targets. Maybe it could be incorporated into the "Success Stories" as some kind of spec sheet for the car? Maybe others have some interesting ideas on how to present and share this information.

Many thanks for such an interesting debate. Matt.
This is an interesting idea. You could set it up as a choice tree. Since you just need to think about a single cylinder, it's actually not overly complex.

Here's the factors that I think would be important.

2-stroke or 4-stroke.
Valves per cylinder.
Combustion chamber shape (hemi, pent roof, bathtub, etc.)
Compression ratio.
Cylinder displacement.

When you look at things from a single cylinder perspective, it no longer matters if the engine's a V6, V8, inline 4, radial or rotary. This would make it easier to find a compatible map of AFR targets.
swicked86
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AFR and Timing

Post by swicked86 »

Engines can run leaner with better squish and less timing
engines need to be richer with less squish and more timing<eases ignition>

If you have soup bowls for pistons try running a little richer
if you have flat tops lean it out a bit
if it is domed richen it up
12.5-13.5 NA


remember fuel and air dont mix perfectly so unburned fuel in the exaust showing a rich afr really might not be all that rich

Anyhow I really dont know what i am talking about..... lean it out till max vacume an richen it up a little thats where the power is lol

Its 4AM good night :twisted:
naprotejay
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Post by naprotejay »

hmmmm interesting thread. I'll be using MSII on a rebuilt 10:1+ na motor(click the red 'rebuilt' link in my sig for details and a dyno with the stock ecu). Untill I read this thread I was just going to richen up the a/f's to the much advertised low 13/high 12 range for max power......

But, according to the general thoughts/direction of this thread - since I don't know the ideal ignition advance table for my car - I was thinking the right way to tune may be to back off the timing, tune a/f for 14.7 across the board, and then advance the timing untill I get ping....?

I assume that would be 'ideal', but of course every situation is different and so it may need to be a little richer, etc, etc
saqmaster

Post by saqmaster »

naprotejay wrote:hmmmm interesting thread. I'll be using MSII on a rebuilt 10:1+ na motor(click the red 'rebuilt' link in my sig for details and a dyno with the stock ecu). Untill I read this thread I was just going to richen up the a/f's to the much advertised low 13/high 12 range for max power......

But, according to the general thoughts/direction of this thread - since I don't know the ideal ignition advance table for my car - I was thinking the right way to tune may be to back off the timing, tune a/f for 14.7 across the board, and then advance the timing untill I get ping....?

I assume that would be 'ideal', but of course every situation is different and so it may need to be a little richer, etc, etc
No, peak power will occur in the region of 12.5:1 - 13.0:1. Your exhaust gas temperature will be dangerously high running stoichiometric mixtures at WOT, you may even lose an exhaust valve or two.
naprotejay
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Post by naprotejay »

saqmaster wrote: No, peak power will occur in the region of 12.5:1 - 13.0:1. Your exhaust gas temperature will be dangerously high running stoichiometric mixtures at WOT, you may even lose an exhaust valve or two.
thanks for the correction for the newbie :) after re-reading the thread, I realized my '14.7 conclusion' was wrong - no one suggested anything to that effect. Once I get the MSII in, I'll tune around that low 13/high 12 range; then I'll play with the timing - and eventually see if I can run a *touch* leaner with less timing and make similar power......

thanks all for the info!
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