MSD 6AL causing tuning problems??

Mr Gadgets · Post by **Mr Gadgets** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:36 pm

Dave,
You were right.. the defalts were programmed for the LC-1 WB output. I redid them to 10:1 =0v and 20:1 = 5v.. Still no luck with gauge readings.

I changed all my ignition settings to match what Krisr has and the motor seemed to run better, but still no reliable indications on the AFR gauges.

I did manage to rev the motor to 2k and then 3k and do some VE tuning and that seems to help.. I even see a little bit of movement on the AFR gauges when I rev it that high.

I am nervous about trying to tune this motor without some decent readings on the gauges.. I hate to burn down a piston after all of this.

I am going to do some tests with the LC-1 to see if it responds and then I may attempt to remove the ignition control from the MSII and just do the fuel. I hate to go back to the PC building, but I have to sort this out before winter shows up.. already missed half the summer..

I am wondering if I am the first boater to squirt a motor.. and breaking new ground.. after all it is just a motor??

I did try to capture a data log, have to figure out how to post it..

Thanks
Dick

ChevelleFan · Post by **ChevelleFan** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:52 am

I've had a lot of trouble with my LC-1 and the AFR gauge flickering around too, to the point of being useless. I popped my NB back in so I could at least use MSTweak, as I had good results the first time around with the NB/MSTweak combo to get my new engine combo dialed in.

I'm pretty sure you're not the first boat guy. You might want to make a post with a subject specifically stating you have a boat engine to get the others' attention.

-Dave

Mr Gadgets · Post by **Mr Gadgets** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:42 am

Well I figured out what was wrong.. Now all I have to do is figure out how to fix it.

The LC-1 seems to have given up the ghost and died.. only puts out 1v no matter what I do programing wise.. It was working. Just wish I could have found my problem before it died!!

I first remove ignition control from the MSII and just locked in the Dist used the Hall effect input to trigger MSII. That worked after some juggling of the settings. Then...

Well I found that I was running on 4 cylinders.. Hence the ugly response when I wrapped the throttle. I found it by unplugging injectors and see if it affected the idle speed. Running it at 1200rpm.. it ran the same on 4 or 8 injectors..

So off to the injector setting screen.. I bumped my PWM % to 100 and upped my open time, and it started to run real rich.. so I adjusted my VE and it really woke up. The motor revs, it needs all 8 injectors to run right.. Now the only problem.. Can't run it with 100% on the PWM.. Low impedence injectors. So I am off to search for the cure.

Thanks for you help guys!!

Dick

davezed · Post by **davezed** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:55 pm

Hi Dick
I've being watching your progress with interest, sounds like your on track. You may want to checkout this link http://www.msefi.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... 1&start=70 , Turbo4V also had an issue with low impedance injectors. Tell me, I was expecting some sort of comments about what I said about configuring MS for a MSD system, can you confirm if your spark out = going low or going hi and if the timing stated on megatune is the same as what you read on your crank in a couple of different RPM area's.

Anyway good luck with it all

Cheers
DaveZZ

Mr Gadgets · Post by **Mr Gadgets** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:59 am

I did have it set to going low.. and at one point it did.. 20* offset. I didnt check at differnt rpms, but will as soon as I find my problem.
I now am using Hall input and locked the dist at 32*.. to find my PWM problem..
The thread that you pointed me to.. very interesting. I am going to look into the noise issues and check to see how I did the grounds.. I am using a relay board, and made my own harness from the MS to the relay board.
I do see the 12v line in real time tunning window jump around a lot.. So this may take me to new areas..

Thanks for the link!! Just hope I can figure it out.

Very frustrating.. summer is whizzing by.. and no boat.
I am not sure how to troubleshoot the flyback circuits. Lance is helping but I am not finding anything. I will fire the motor today and look at things with the scope.. see if that tells me any thing.

Thanks
Dick

davezed · Post by **davezed** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:46 pm

I understand your frustration, I too am so close but yet so far away. If I can get it going well once then I will be a lot more informed next time if thing go wrong, its just getting to that point which seems so tough; to know if you have an electrical or fuel problem. But again, I have confidence in the system so I think it's worth pushing on

Good luck
DaveZZ

Mr Gadgets · Post by **Mr Gadgets** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:25 pm

Well it is Sunday nite, another weekend spent trying to get the motor to run properly. I am about at the end of my patients. Not sure how to solve this one. I tried to get some waveforms and check for noise on the 12v, and grounds. Not much luck with that. I shut off the motor to try and determine some steps to take, now the motor wont start. It just ran for almost 45min.. and no start.

Then Innovate tells me my new LC-1 must be an old unit, the outputs are fried. I was setting the outputs to give a flat line and then tried to set it back to defaults and now only get 1v output. I bought it in Nov and it seems to be out of warranty..

I do appreciate your encouragement. I think at this point, I need to find some kind of resistors to put in series and get it runing. Play with it later. I hate to do that, but I dont know what else to do.. I thought about wiring the PWM TIP125's to a 12v outside the MS box like Justin did. But not sure if that is causing my problem. So hard to sit in the engine compartment and take reading on things..

Well tomorrow is another day.. I give up at this point..

Totally Discouraged..

Dick

davezed · Post by **davezed** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:12 am

G'day Dick
You sound how I feel a lot of the time..... I hate being beaten and I have a lot of people that would love to see it fail, these people mainly run Motec or Haltech systems and can't believe a FYI could work, I don't want these people to have the "wood" on me! Now I'm not sure where you are at the minute but one thing I did notice with my system was the noise on the +12V system caused predominately by the MSD. I got a couple huge caps (41,000uF) and put one at the MSD and one just before the computer, this got rid of a lot of noise, having said that it didn't fix my problem but if your running an MSD it's not a bad idea to do similar. Here is a link that talks about this sort of thing
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/tech%20b ... _noise.pdf . I guess if you can remove the MSD from your system this could be a cheaper alternative to "prove" the innocence of that interfering. Also under "Setting" + "General" you will see 6 "input smoothing lag factors", have you played with these, these are software filters that can also help with electrical noise + big cams (the smaller the number more filtering applied, I use about 35 for the volts/clt/mat). Have you tried the filter in the MAP line, this had an effort on mind (not sure if I like yet, can cause a bit of a lag on the MAP line).
Anyway with being so close I think you would kick yourself if you didn't keep trying. Maybe if you "shout" loud enough you might attract more help?? Also, if you send in a log plus msq file then people might be able to see more.....

Cheers
DaveZZ

Mr Gadgets · Post by **Mr Gadgets** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:06 am

Again, thanks for the incouragement!! I am like you, dont want to give up and the Haltech guys.. you know the drill!!

I did do a log. But it is the default, and the 12v line isnt included? I tried to find info on changing what is in the log file, no luck.. Can you point me to that info?

I did purchase some big caps to filter the 12v going to the MSD to protect it. So I can add them to see what happens. I hate giving up!!

I have not played with the "lag" settings, but will!! I have so little MAP, when idling good, I see about 80kpa, higher idle, 77kpa.

On the subject of logs and msq. I still cant see attachments. I found a post that from Lance that said to alter my security settings and I did, still cant see them?

Now why the motor wont start now, after running it for 45mins and just shutting it off?? One step at a time right..

Again thankyou for the incouragment.. it means a lot at this point!!

Dick

davezed · Post by **davezed** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:05 am

My motor is but a baby compared to yours, (351W) with about 50kpa at idle, when I scoped the MAP output you could see every cylinder compression stroke, I think you need to tackle that with the software filter and some sort of vacuum bottle (fuel filter) as suggested in the manual.
If your using MS2 (cant remember => getting late so I'm in a rush) and say V2.36 software add the following to your "custom.ini" , this can be found under \mtCfg directory, ie you know the directory where megatune looks when started, go one deeper and you will see the "mtCfg" directory.
;-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Datalog]
entry = batteryVoltage, "Voltage", float, "%.1f"

This will add the voltage to your log, if your using the beta software 2.864 then it already has it as "vbatt".
Most of this can be found in the megatune manual http://www.megasquirt.info/megatune.htm#introadvice but there is a lot to read and digest (well worth it).
As for your posts, not sure about that side, someones the world can be just like a vacuum cleaner....... it just sucks!!!

Get thoses caps in, maybe redo the grounds, mod the vacuum port and play with the lags and see how it goes.

Cheers
DaveZZ