IAC tuning. Am I crazy? (Solved!)

For discussing MicroSquirt (TM) configuration and tuning of fuel parameters (including idle valves, etc.).
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BottleFed70
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Post by BottleFed70 »

grippo wrote:The code is working, but its not having the intended effect. Your msq looks fine, I can't find anything in the software or datalog that would explain this. Is there anything you can think of that is different on restart. As an example, there was some lingering warmup enrichment on run 1 which was gone in run2 because iit started at oeprating temperature. But this is only a few percent enrichment. Now if your car was starved for fuel and that's what made it idle lower on the second run, that's a possibility. But it would sound like crap and I'm assuming it idles smoothly on restart. In run 1, if you had let it run another 5 min would the idle go down ?

I very much doubt that going to 10 steps would make any difference since there is no improvement with 5. I will talk this over with Bruce in the morning. He has a board he may want you to try.
The only thing I can think of that's different is that the stepper is moving in large steps on a warm restart. If you increase the "start to taper time" you can really notice it as it brings down the idle in 2 or 3 large steps (each time trimming the idle by about 500RPM). That's why I was thinking maybe moving to 10 steps would help.

On run 1 that's about as low as the RPM was going to get. I have the step table going to 230 steps but I'm pretty sure the stepper motor would have bottomed out at around 190 or so under normal conditions.

The IAC port makes a pretty good whistle...so I can somewhat verify by ear how much air it's letting by. This behaviour is very predictable.. it happens on every warmup.. and the car doesn't need to be at full temp for a restart to bring down the idle. It seems to idle and run fine and so far road tuning is going well. It's also important to note that the IAC does move some during warmup, If fully open at operating temp my idle goes to over 2000RPM.

At any time during that datalog I could have turned the key off and restarted and the idle would have dropped back to 800rpm only to start climbing again as the engine warmed up. It's normal for me to do this 2 or 3 times during a warmup so the engine isn't idleing at 1400+rpm like in the datalogs.

The only other thing that I can think of that might be helpfull is that I've noticed the IAC seems more likely to move during the early stages of warmup (low step count) as the step count exceeds about 200 it doesn't seem like the IAC moves at all. Yet I can tell by the sound of the whistle that the IAC port is letting too much air in and the IAC still has more room to move.
1970 Ford Mustang
MSII, v3.0 PCB, v2.36 firmware, Megatune 2.25
Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

BottleFed70 wrote: BUT..again after simply turning the key off and starting the car again, my idle dropped down to normal at about 800rpm.
FWIW: I can confirm that this is also my experience and I have seen a few others reporting likewise (Bleoh, JSC, 69 1/2/six pack bee, Ballistic and Godzilla 525 - not all reports under this topic) also having to restart and then once IAC actually moves in the forward direction it seems to work as intended.

I get the impression that "something" needs to "warm up" before things start working. If I restart too soon after the initial start, even the restart also does not have the required effect.

All I did was to jumper out the resistors and I'm using "15min IAC" with my square plug IAC.

Following this thread it would seem to me that there are two IAC related issues:
1) IAC working only on restart but then working well
2) IAC generally not working well

It would be nice if someone go capture a trace of pulses going to IAC as soon as cranking commences. And as I typed these words another thought came to mind:

If I remember right, IAC only moves to the cranking position once cranking commences. Is it not possible that, due to cranking, the resulting batt voltage drop is enough to cause the IAC movement to the cranking position to fail and mess up everything thereafter. What if the code would open IAC and then immediately close it to the cranking position BEFORE cranking commences or having a big fat cap with diode before MS-2 to source charge for IAC movement during cranking? (My car is at gearbox shop so I can't test anything at the moment.
Kind regards
Philip
Land Rover Discovery '95 4.6 V8i MS-2/V3/2.36/LC-1/EDIS
Jaguar XJS V.12 5.3, MS-2(2.686t11 - Dual table)/Dual LC-1/MSD6A/spark(VR/dissy)+fuel(LoZ+PWM)
grippo
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Post by grippo »

Philip,

I think you may be on to something here. The present code waits until it has some tach pulses before it checks for idle control. I think I can start the check before tach pulses arrive and have the stepper in position before cranking starts. Since there will be no significant warmup during cranking, the motor won't move - or at most a step or two would be lost. I will try to send out a new test code version tonight.

The only reservation I have is that the power supply I use in testing only supplies 10 V and it runs my motor 1 step at a time. A good car battery should not drop below this even during cranking.
BottleFed70
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Post by BottleFed70 »

What Philip says makes some sence...but wouldn't this suspected behaviour happen during both a warm and cold start?

I'll also add that I have a very healthy 1100CCA battery in my car. I had to increase my cranking RPM to 350 because my starter/battery can turn the engine at nearly 300RPM.

If you do ptoduce a modified version of the code to test this, I'll be happy to give it a try.
1970 Ford Mustang
MSII, v3.0 PCB, v2.36 firmware, Megatune 2.25
Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

BottleFed70 wrote:...but wouldn't this suspected behaviour happen during both a warm and cold start?
One would tend to think so BUT, 0.1V could be making all the difference. I find that the very first cranking in the morning tends to be more laborius than after the engine has fired, ran a few seconds, dies and is then cranked again. It could have to with oil pressure having built up thus reducing cranking friction so that second time round the starter has to work less hard and thus draws less current with 0.1V less voltage drop?

I agree that with a good bat, voltage drop should be minimal but it would be nice if MS-2 was highly robust against "less than perfect" car batteries which I would expect to be rather common.

BTW: I only use deep cycle batteries in all my cars.... (I'm not saying its right, but they sure do last MUCH longer than "normal" car batteries)
Kind regards
Philip
Land Rover Discovery '95 4.6 V8i MS-2/V3/2.36/LC-1/EDIS
Jaguar XJS V.12 5.3, MS-2(2.686t11 - Dual table)/Dual LC-1/MSD6A/spark(VR/dissy)+fuel(LoZ+PWM)
Philip Lochner
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Post by Philip Lochner »

grippo wrote:I will try to send out a new test code version tonight.
Mr Grippo

Perhaps the theory can be tested with the std 2.35 code? What if we were to set "cranking position" to 0, and just to allow the alternator to start charging (to get V back to above 12V) set "crank to run taper time" to, say 5 seconds? (If nothing this would spare you the trouble of writing code perhaps unnecessarily.)

Doing so would result in rather high idle speeds immediately after start (due to IAC being wide open), but then it should hop onto the IAC steps curve and if this is set properly, should rapidly bring idle speed down to acceptable levels.

If this does the trick, then revised code (to set crank pos before cranking) would still be appreciated. In off-roading we DO NOT want the engine to rev very high when started (if stalled against steep incline).

Thanks for your (and your colleagues') attention to this matter. As far as I am concerned, this IAC issue is the only one that needs sorting to render a truly marvellous product and concept.
Kind regards
Philip
Land Rover Discovery '95 4.6 V8i MS-2/V3/2.36/LC-1/EDIS
Jaguar XJS V.12 5.3, MS-2(2.686t11 - Dual table)/Dual LC-1/MSD6A/spark(VR/dissy)+fuel(LoZ+PWM)
bluetrepidation
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Post by bluetrepidation »

I had some time to play with my IAC. Things are still erratic at best. Time to test the new code. I'll be sure to let you know the results once I give it a go.

A.J.


bluetrepidation wrote:OK got the new processor in today. Jumped large resistors. Flashed with 3.35 code. Set to 15 min IAC. I had a little time and I did notice the "noise" I was feeling on the motor was gone. Because the resistors where jumped I assume. When I get more time I'll be sure to observe the motor movements from a cold start and get back to you.

A.J.
1999 Saturn SC2 1.9L DOHC 4 cyl NA
MS II Blue Processor w/ 2.684 Beta Code
V3 PCB
MegaTune 2.25
Innovate LC1 WB O2 Sensor
OBD I Saturn Wasted Spark DIS
w/ Cooling Fan and IAC
grippo
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Post by grippo »

OK here is the revised test code to try. This is the original 2.35 code with just one line of code moved to follow the Idle checking, so it was an easy change and works on the bench. You don't have to set the "no. accel steps" its not used.
Joethemechanic
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Post by Joethemechanic »

Al, I finnally got around to loading 2.35x1 to My board, all I can say for sure is that according to the MT display it was moving 4 stepps at a time.
I tried several versions of IAC moving only and 15min warm up and all it did was to do whatever the little gremmlin inside told it to do, just about everything but work.

Sorry I dont have more detailes, but I was under a time crunch and couldnt get anything solid out of it.

I will try the new 2.35x2 code tomaro if time permitts.
Joe
BottleFed70
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Post by BottleFed70 »

So I tried the 2.35x1 code again last night, except this time with the # of acceleration steps set to 10.

This actually worked really well!
By the end of warmup, my idle had dropped right down to approx 850RPM.

Nothing has changed since my warmup with # of steps set to 5.

I have a datalog but this time it came out to over 1MB so I can't post it, it's really not that interesting anyway.

I'll have to do some more testing, but it's looking like I could make it work fairly well.
1970 Ford Mustang
MSII, v3.0 PCB, v2.36 firmware, Megatune 2.25
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